#1 2021-02-15 20:50:40

Marc_Langbroek
Member
From: Den Helder, Netherlands
Registered: 2019-03-04
Posts: 31

Understanding the rudder.

Understanding the rudder.

Ls,

When I recently overhauled the propeller shaft, the bearing and the Volvo seal of Grace Darling, the idea popped up about a feathering propeller. The drag of the blades and the wear of the seal are a justifier for a smart upgrade. But whatever the type of make its going to be, I’ll have to cut that much of a recess in the rudder blade for the amount of space the folding blades need to work freely and avoid cavitation from passing blades when operated.

Sawing away in ones rudder is a rather scary thought, so when one knows what to expect inside, that makes things a little easier.   

So I’m wondering how the rudder is assembled with what kind of materials and has this been done in a standard sort of fashion? I’ve got the rudder now in the workshop, and when closely examining the blade, it looks like there is a (very hard to see) seam on the small (hinges front) side that looks like if she’s constructed of two pieces of plywood, glued one on the other. And after shaping and drilling etc. the whole is finished in polyester. Maybe someone has done some extensive repairs on a rudder, and has some expertise on the construction?   
Hope to find some answers,

Greetings,

Marc Langbroek
S/Y Grace Darling
The Netherlands.

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#2 2021-02-15 23:01:39

Charles_Grossie
Member
Registered: 2017-08-10
Posts: 67

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Hi Marc. You want to fit a feathering propeller, which means that you won't/shouldn't need to alter anything in respect of the propeller recess.

I, like several other Victoria/Francis owners have installed Darglow Featherstream feathering propellers. They are manufactured in the UK.

Darglow can provide a template (down loadable) which is used to ensure that their propeller fits your installation.

Visit www.darglow.co.uk

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Charlie (Victoria 34 - 'Anitra')

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#3 2021-02-16 20:15:13

Jonathan_Hopper
Member
Registered: 2004-03-23
Posts: 105

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Marc - I would agree with Charles over choice of feathering prop.

With regard to the rudder, originally they had a cut out behind the propeller, but later on Victoria realised that filling in the cut out gave certain advantages when steering in a marina environment, and an improvement in balance.      If you have a look in the manual you will find a page on how to modify the rudder by Bob Hathaway, and this details how your rudder is likely to have been made, and probably changed.   Indeed your description seems consistent, but bear in mind that you may well be cutting into a modification.   You will need to cut out a bit of rudder (assuming you have a straight leading edge) to install a Featherstream, though I would recommend you make the smallest cut-out you can get away with.   

The templates are a useful guide, but I did find that, whatever I did, my printer did not print a true drawing. Even a pdf came out wrong.    In the end Darglow sent me an accurate template.

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#4 2021-02-16 20:21:58

Marc_Langbroek
Member
From: Den Helder, Netherlands
Registered: 2019-03-04
Posts: 31

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Charles,

Thanks for your quick and clear reply on my rudder matters.

As I was looking around for candidates to replace my fixed 3 blade propeller, I noticed that the Darglow Featherstream has been constructed on a most modest hub. Some other makes have these bulky hubs that requires a new (longer) shaft as well. It would be the most cost efficient if the shaft could be reused. Besides the more modest the design by means of volume the better it usually looks. And when the boat is dried out or ashore, one wants to admire the looks, the propeller must be a natural part of it.

As you stated in your comment that there isn't any need to alter the propeller recess, I'll take it you mean the recess on the hull part? I see there is enough space for a 13" 3 blade model. On the other hand it looks to me that the rudder blade is too close to the propeller blade aft tip trajectory. I will contact Darglow to provide me a template to do a Mk1 Mod0 pre-fit.

As far as I have noticed, that when choosing for a Darglow model, it comes to the mainland without VAT on it. That has to be paid for in the Netherlands as well as Customs and Excise fees. (And thát hurts)

I'll keep you posted, and again thanks for your kind support,

Marc Langbroek
S/Y Grace Darling
The Netherlands.

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#5 2021-02-16 21:16:29

Marc_Langbroek
Member
From: Den Helder, Netherlands
Registered: 2019-03-04
Posts: 31

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Jonathan,

While I uploaded the reply to Charles your message popped up, how remarkable is that!

Thanks also for your input on my rudder matters.  I've just finished studying the Technical Manual, specific the article of rudder mods by Mr. Hathaway. What I do read is about a modification of the closing of the original cut out in the rudder blade. Probably to reduce the opening between the forward face of the rudder and the stern post line? My blade has at the level of the propeller a very small reduced space of app. 25mm. See picture. What I also 'think' to see now is a triangular shaped irregularity (on both sides, marked with the dotted line) that might directs towards a fill up operation in the past?

1613506177_ruddergap_gd_klein.jpg

Anyway, these are new insights into the construction of the rudder. The template will hopefully shine some light on the way to go to get a feathered propeller.

Is there anything to say about the construction of the rudderblade? Like did the use 2 parts marine grade plywood, how was it glued, coated etc?

Thanks for your kind reply,

Marc Langbroek
S/Y Grace Darling     
The Netherlands

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#6 2021-02-21 23:01:20

Jonathan_Hopper
Member
Registered: 2004-03-23
Posts: 105

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Marc - here are a couple more photos, if they help:

1613942884_rudder_mod_straight.jpg

The original lines were horizontal and vertical, meeting the hull cut out.   I have tried to draw on where I think it used to be - though it could be that the vertical line was a bit further aft, similar to your chalk line.   I have scoured all my photos but cannot find one with the original lines, and a trawl through the internet has not helped.   I have seen quite a lot of variation on the leading edges of rudders for the Frances, but do not know if that was Victoria or owners trying to keep the gap to a minimum.   It is hard to assess your chalk lines without it being against the hull, but it looks likely.

1613943198_featherstream.jpg

This is Francesca's current configuration, with a new cut out needed for the Featherstream to articulate.

Regarding construction - it is difficult to be sure, but it is probably either 1 sheet of 25mm ply or 2 x 12mm ply epoxied together, covered in polyester, 1200g chop strand map and gel coat (?).   It should also have an underwater epoxy coating on top to keep it all dry (quite comforting to have the opportunity to check it is all nice and dry in the middle!).

Hope this helps.

Jonathan

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#7 2021-02-23 19:15:27

Kevin_Misselbrook
Member
Registered: 2017-05-26
Posts: 26

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Hi Marc,
I think it's very likely that your rudder has been modified/corrected to reduce the void found on the Frances 26 that sat behind the prop.  This issue was addressed with the Victoria 800.

Last year I made this "filling in" modification to my own rudder and have attached Before and After pics for which might provide some evidence of your own modification  ...

1614104489_rudder_before_small_jpg.jpg
...

1614103354_rudder_after_small_jpg2.jpg

Please note that due to my 13 inch prop and a full size cutlass bearing the amount I could fill in was limited.

As mentioned the belief is that the original rudders were made with 25mm ply and polyester matt and resin.  When I made my modification I used Epoxy matt, Epoxy resin, and Epoxy primer.  As you probably know you can lay epoxy onto polyester but you cannot lay polyester onto epoxy.  So once you go one way there is no going back !

I put photos of the whole process up onto the Victoria and Frances Yachts Facebook group which might be helpful when you re-finish your reduced rudder shape.  (at the time I did this project posting photos onto this forum was more challenging). Please see link below.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1855129 … 052434694/

I hope this might help.  Like all work on boats the job is always bigger than you anticipate !
Let me know if you need any further information.

Kevin.

Last edited by Kevin_Misselbrook (2021-02-23 19:21:38)

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#8 2021-03-02 20:46:30

Marc_Langbroek
Member
From: Den Helder, Netherlands
Registered: 2019-03-04
Posts: 31

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Kevin, Jonathan,

Thanks for all the sound advices you've served me with. The photo session on the net was very useful.

I finally made the decision to go for a Darglow Featherstream, mostly because the hub is of decent dimensions. Also I had contact with the sales dept. and had a few good chats about the ins and outs of the propeller. Also their effort to find out exactly what from an engineering point of view the situation on the shaft / recess / rudder dimensions are gives me confidence in the process. So the prop is ordered, an upgrade from 12 to 13 inch, all well adjusted for the dimensions as given.

The propeller is expected coming week, so then the fitting can be done, while then the rudder has to be positioned, and the recess has to be made. And all well protected with polyester etc. afterwards.

Exciting!! I'll keep you posted.

Last edited by Marc_Langbroek (2021-03-04 10:47:54)

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#9 2021-03-17 20:36:53

Marc_Langbroek
Member
From: Den Helder, Netherlands
Registered: 2019-03-04
Posts: 31

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Good evening all,

The propeller arrival was announced by HMS Customs & Excise. After making the final payments to satisfy the Dutch Treasury the Darglow Featherstream propeller arrived at our home address. Unpacking the box felt like an early Christmas present. All was complete and the looks of it was sheer joy. After reading thoroughly the owner and installing manual from front to end and back it was time to do the first fit.

1616007365_op_tafel_klein.jpg


The key was a little to wide for the new propeller, and after some subtle polishing the key went smooth into the slot of the hub. Now was the moment to fit the propeller on the shaft, to see if the key wasn't to high. That might cause key lock, meaning that the hub doesn't come all the way on the conical part of the shaft, and so not create the tight grip a conical connection delivers. A few tenths of a millimeter had to be filed away to give the right fit. So the unit was placed and ready to see what recess the rudder needed to give the propeller free movement.

1616008545_eerste_passingklein.jpg

After fitting the rudder, the ultimate rudder angles were used to draw the contours of the blades in feathered position to decide what to saw away. Due to the decent dimensions of the Darglow propeller just a small amount had to be removed.

1616008835_zaagsnede_10.jpg
1616008875_zaagsnede_2.jpg
1616008903_zaagsnede_30.jpg

Sawing away at the rudder felt a little awkward. The good news was that the wood inside was in good condition. Moist measurement showed a little reading, normal for a rudder of its age. The recess was grinded and sanded to smooth curves with a decent overlap for the epoxy repair operation. This is being done on the boatyard by a specialist.

Next week the rudder will be ready and will be finished with a fresh layer of antifouling.

Looking forward to the final fit! I'll keep you posted.

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#10 2021-04-03 19:39:24

Marc_Langbroek
Member
From: Den Helder, Netherlands
Registered: 2019-03-04
Posts: 31

Re: Understanding the rudder.

Dear all,

The rudder modification is ready and the whole is finished with a layer of antifouling.
The propeller is fitted, and the rudder placed. All looks well except for some little spills on the paintjob that has to be sanded away. The propeller can move freely in all rudder positions and in all feathered positions, so all in all, job done. I also took the opportunity to fill the upper hinge that has a somewhat tapered topside. I made a thrust bearing with the contra tapered model to get a better spreaded load on the hinge. I used a wear resistant piece of plastic for this specific part.

All looks smart, now lets see how the unit performs.

1617475027_achteraanzict_klein.jpg

1617475049_close_up_schroef_klein.jpg

1617475066_wedge_bearing_klein.jpg

I'll keep you posted,

Marc Langbroek
S/Y Grace Darling

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